Reflections upon the series & part-time work in the UK.
Emma Jacobs, Work and Careers writer for the Financial Times is an expert on work trends in the UK and writes on social and cultural issues too. Emma and Claire Campbell, the CEO of Timewise discuss Emma’s personal working style, reflect on the series and look towards the future at what further change is needed.
Podnotes: How to thrive and progress as a part-time worker and How to find a part-time role
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Claire: In today’s bonus episode, I chat with Emma Jacobs, work and careers writer for the FT. Having previously co-authored the satirical column, Work Tribes, Emma creates features with a particular focus on work, changes in the workplace and office life. I chat to Emma about her own experience of part-time working, how she sees the changes around flexible working playing out, what she makes of the four day week trials, and her hopes of how part-time work would evolve in the future.
Emma: I work part-time. I work four days a week. I went back after I had my son, full time. And then as he started school, I went four and a half days a week. And then I progressed to four days a week. But also, I felt that I wanted to pick my son up from school and just have a bit more flexibility when he went to school. Now he’s at secondary school so it’s not the same, I’ve been thinking whether I want to go back full time. And I don’t think I do.
Claire: Is that because the space that extra day allows you?
Emma: Yeah, and also I’ll be doing kind of my own writing that, kind of, I don’t know what it will amount to. But it’s something that I’ve been keeping office hours in school time. Well, you know, it’s not that he wants to talk to me when he comes home from school, but I’ve been trying to work on my own stuff outside of my normal job. But that’s what I want to carry on doing for the moment.
Claire: Yeah. And that links to what we heard in the last discussion from Katie and Richard, who are kind of big thinkers that have made a lot of impact in their fields, and felt that part-time working has been a key part of their success. So what do you think we can we can learn from stories like that?
Emma: Yeah, I thought that they had very different stories to each other. And him, in particular, Richard, I thought was interesting, because he didn’t have a kind of caring responsibility. I mean, outside his job, it was something that he wanted to devote his own time to. And it kind of made him more aware of, of other people’s demands, I guess, and other people’s stresses and strains. Whereas Katie’s was more traditional. I think it made both of them very understanding as managers.
Claire: Yes, and I think we’ve heard from, from other stories in this series, that sometimes it’s when you’re not at work, you get your best ideas. So having those chances to do something creative, get outside, you know, perhaps where people do their, their best work, so to speak.
Emma: And it is actually, and in those sorts of jobs is quite intensive. And so you kind of, I don’t want to overstate it, I mean, I am not in an emergency room or anything like that. But you know, it can be quite stressful. And that in a normal weekend, you’re kind of transitioning on a Saturday, but actually having a kind of transition on a Friday, which is when I have my day off – is really helpful, we get much more clear headed. And as you say, you can think a lot more and, and I keep a kind of running list of ideas, and often I’m having them at the weekend when I’m not working.
Claire: Across the series, we’ve heard quite positive stories of part-time working across the show. Do you think employers are more understanding these days about part-time?
Emma: I think they have to think about it more. I think that there are a lot of, particularly around women, I think they’re trying to think much more about, how do we nurture talent? And how do we make sure that we can attract women, and maintain them in the workforce, but also kind of groom them for leadership roles, or kind of success later. So there is a kind of awareness around part-time being part of a, kind of, life cycle or career cycle. So I think there is much more awareness, but I think it is still a very tricky area, and I don’t think that employers manage it very well. I’ve spoken to lots of part-time workers, as you will have done, who are doing lots of unpaid work. I know from media organisations that a lot of my peers think actually, I’m working on the fifth day, why am I doing all this work for free, and they often end up going full time again. I think it is hard to manage other people. I think that if you’re working full time and you see somebody working part-time, you think why are they being given the same opportunities as me, that there can be a resentment.
Claire: That team dynamic has been mentioned in one of one of the stories we’ve heard in this series, again, that sometimes the resistance isn’t from the manager, but from the peers who are kind of sensing this unfairness by that person not being around and I think you’re right, it’s perhaps work – people still chunk work in five day blocks. There’s quite a traditional view, that’s what work is. So you know how can we get employers to think differently about how jobs are designed, particularly when the world isn’t nine to five, Monday to Friday, and lots of jobs don’t need to be. So why do we still think of things quite traditionally like that?
Emma: I think there is a resistance. I mean, when we’ve seen the kind of return to the office, there is a resistance in terms of, you know, everyone thought during the pandemic, we thought that everyone was going to have this great epiphany and, and things were never going to go back to normal. And to some extent, they haven’t. I think there is much more flexibility in the way that employers think. And I think that we still do think very much in these kind of rigid days. Nobody ever has a realistic conversation. I think, really, the good employers do, but I think lots of people don’t. They don’t say, what would this look like spread over fewer hours? And they don’t say, what would a good outcome be for your workload? What can I mark you against? You know, what can I say that you’ve achieved that’s a success in terms of the job?
Claire: Yeah, I agree. And I think, it’s all too often, just take the full time job and squash it and make it work. And it’s left up to the individual to make it work. Whereas, as you say, hopefully in more and more cases, there’s more a more direct conversation about workload and what adjustments could be made. But that’s a new concept for some employers that were trying to spread the word around.
Emma: I mean, there is a lot more flexibility in terms of the working week, especially if you’re working from home part of the week, say some caring responsibilities would be around school hours, which is, you know, has been one form of part-time working, compressed hours or kind of leaving early. But you don’t have to do that so much now. You could log off between three and five and log back on later. Have you’ve seen kind of any diminished interest in part-time work?
Claire: The numbers have remained fairly steady. But you’re right though, straight after lockdown and COVID, there was a slight decline in people working part-time. And I think it was because greater flexibility to do a school run to make up hours, at the weekend or whatever, was there. And people got used to working that way. And of course, we’ve had a financial cost of living crisis that has meant some families have had to both work full time to make ends meet. So yes, I think greater flexibility has helped, but not diminished the demand altogether for part-time work. And we know people want part-time work for a variety of reasons, not just the childcare ones, but you know, as they move into later life or health conditions, and increasingly younger workers as well, for various reasons, whether it’s their own wellbeing, mental health, or because they’ve got a side hustle that outside of work that they’re pursuing, or, you know, I think a different attitude towards what work looks like. So do you think, given we have longer working lives, this issue about who’s associated with part-time working, you know, currently over 6 million of the 8 million part-time workers are women, do you think that will change over time?
Emma: I guess better paternity leave is helping shift some of this kind of dynamic. It is a hard one to shift, though, especially in a lot of these kind of greedy jobs, or these kind of, you know, certainly city companies that I talk to, they might take longer paternity leave, and that does help. But it’s still kind of, there’s still quite a lot of, you know, working long hours is the best way to prove yourself and to show commitment to the company. But I agree, I think that, I think that younger people want more of a mix, they see that the kind of contract of their parents, between employer and employee, you don’t necessarily get a great return for what you put into it. So you know, they want to make their working lives work for them to some degree, that is something that Gen Z are interested in. I think that if we, we need to get part-time working right, because we need to get it right for moving into retirement. Because, you know, people don’t – are going to work longer. They don’t want to work in the same roles. They don’t want to work at the same pace necessarily, although lots of people do. And also they just haven’t got the savings to jump into retirement. I think that there isn’t enough thinking about older people and part-time working. And by older people, I guess I mean, 60 plus.
Claire: One area that has triggered a lot of interest over the last couple of years have been things like the four day week trials and experiments in working less. I wondered what, you know, any thoughts about those trials? And one of my colleagues wonders if four day week is a sort of rebrand of part-time with it, with a more acceptable face because it doesn’t have some of the connotations that, you know, part-time has with, kind of, working mothers and so on.
Emma: I did do quite a lot of reporting on companies that have done the trial of a four day week. And I thought it was very interesting. And I don’t think it is the future. However, however much people shout about it. I hope it, you know, be nice if more people did it and it’d be nice if more employers thought about it. And it is a good way to, kind of, get some, kind of, gender parity up to measure by making it kind of less stigmatised, showing men that it’s, you know, nice to have a day off, or, you know, you can see your family or do that hobby that you’ve always wanted to do. I think there is a lot of work. And also, it’s not really been done at a mass scale, none of these kind of big employers, you know, the likes of Unilever or Microsoft – have done them in small territories. I don’t think Microsoft’s lasted. That was done in Japan. The Unilever one has been done in New Zealand, but it hasn’t been rolled out elsewhere, I don’t think. It was interesting talking to people that had been part-time before, who had been joined by the rest of the company on that day off. So I spoke to somebody who was head of HR at one company, and she said that she had really enjoyed everybody else coming up to four days a week, because it meant that she wasn’t getting a backlog of emails to attend to. No-one was tagging her into a meeting by accident. It just meant that everybody had a break. And she knew that that time was free for her. So that was, that was interesting. Also, she got a pay bump, because everybody else was now on a, kind of – it’s not a compressed week, but the workload is compressed, I guess. And I think that, possibly, the experiment has shown, I don’t think people are listening sort of carefully enough to how much work goes into doing these trials, and that there’s a lot of preparation that needs to take place. And I guess, my kind of take home for the part-time community, if that’s the thing, actually, we should be treating, preparing for part-time roles with a bit more respect and a bit more understanding of what a shift will be.
Claire: That’s an excellent point. Yes, I agree. Because you have to be so thoughtful to make sure you could do 100% of the output in 80% of the time and that sense of prioritisation and discussions about what really matters is often what part-timers feel they haven’t had that clarity on what really matters and what they can drop. I mean, yeah, we love watching these experiments, because you know, at least it’s organisations listening to staff demand for better working hours, and the chance to just experiment and try and learn. Even if they don’t then fully adopt it for the long term. That there’s value in trialling.
Emma: It is such an undertaking that it’s very hard to go back on. So I think that you have to think you’re going to do it longer term. But I think the more people talk about different work patterns, the better.
Claire: So as we look ahead to the future, you know, as you said that there have been a lot of changes to flexible working more broadly over the last couple of years. But as we look ahead, what are your hopes for part-time work and part-time employment looking forward?
Emma: I guess part of my hopes are that people that don’t actually need part-time work, will have enough flexibility in their week that employers can be flexible enough that they don’t have to take half a day, if they want to take their child, pick their child up from school or take them on to a doctor’s appointment. And so, you know, I like working four days a week, I think it’s got a lot of benefits, the financial hit is hard. I think that, you know, it would be great if people didn’t have to go part-time, if they had some flexibility in their, in their week, but also that people really took part-time work seriously and sort of tried to give people appraisals based on the amount of work they can do properly and to, to organise it in advance. So I guess that is one hope. But also, I guess, thinking more thoughtfully, not just about people with caring responsibilities at the beginning of their family lives, but also for, you know, ageing relatives, also ageing themselves and how they’re going to kind of transition to retirement really. I think that is a big piece, that not enough conversations are happening about it.
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Claire: It was really interesting to hear Emma’s perspective on some of the themes we’ve explored through these podcasts. Clearly a fan of flexibility in general, she makes the case for a world where it’s understood that people need space in their working lives for their outside work commitments. Where employers understand that the trust and flex they give will be repaid in return. It’s been inspiring through this series to hear from people who’ve decided to work less, whatever the reason, and by and large have been supported to do this and progress their careers. I hope their experiences help you feel confident to forge the part-time path which works for you.
My thanks go to Phoenix Insights for helping Timewise create this series and to all the people who’ve put themselves forward and told their stories. Our aim in sharing them is to normalise different working patterns and demonstrate practically how it’s done. We’ll continue to work with employers to open up more part-time and flexible opportunities, because we believe no one should have to compromise their worth because they want to work less than full time. Part-time works.
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